I have this vision of playing a game in a crowded urban center full of non-combatants... with lots of random minis on the table doing random movement, and I have an idea for dealing with the rules for shooting into the crowds of people/missing the opponents... BUT

I want to find a way to balance gameplay. It's gonna be CSO vs either Ronin or APAC, for realism sake the Idea is that while the CSO are restricted to minimizing the amount of collateral damage, I don't think the other teams would have such a strong conviction against doing so...

So how can I balance things out to make gameplay more fair for the CSO player?

I was thinking that I could allow the CSO player the option to either have a 25% larger force... OR... I could give them "Authority" where at the beginning of their Turn they could issue orders to the crowd to "MOVE" or "GET DOWN" and then the people in their line of fire would take a NRV test and either move a random d3 or go prone...

I dunno...

Ideas?

Sounds like a fun scenario! I like the "Authority" Special Rule. With something like this it seems like it just might be a fun "overwhelming odds" type game for the CSO.
Questions that I have are how will you use the line of sight rules in this? How will either force try to avoid the bystanders? What kind of penalty with the CSO face if they hit/kill a bystander?

My gropu has used the deviation die for moving non-combatants. Consider that.

Also, you could do a bunch of extra dice rolling when shooting into crowds, etc. Use a procedure such as this:

1. determine line of sight. do any non-combatants actually block line of sight? if so, they're a possible victim of gunfire.
2. for CSO - assume they are trained in dealing with firing in a populated area. Also assume that their training and their nature will prevent them from firing willy-nilly at a target. Roll a d6. On a 1 - the CSO accidently hits the non-combatant/s/ that is in the line of fire.
3. for APAC, Ronin, Vatacina - assume they don't care much about the lives of non-combatants... the assignment is the key! Roll a d6. On a 1-3 - the shooter accidently hits the non-combatant rather than the intended target.
4. Dravani don't care. Drain them or shoot them. Either way, they're dead.
5. Non-combatants are auto-victims of all template weapons.

Other options:
Give all non-combatants a SAG 1 and roll to dodge the shot, otherwise they take it to the head. If the non-combatant dodges, then resume normal gameplay with the opponent making a normal SAG roll.

Or, make the CSO have to pass a NRV test before firing in/near non-combatants. Target number 10. If they fail, they don't shoot because they're too worried about hitting a civilian. If they pass, they successfully avoid the non-combatant and shoot at their opponent.

Just some off-the-cuff thoughts.

Yeah, all really good ideas!
Hey Zombie!,

this seems like a great Data Dump project!

Billy,

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Cheers

Tony

A couple of thoughts:
First, APAC or a Ronin crew may well have to abide by the same collateral damage considerations the CSO would, either by order, honor, or payroll considerations. Even the Dravani may not want to waste assets if the civilians happen to include Dravani employees that are hard to replace.

That would allow an easy balance, with both sides adding the same restrictions. Start from there, and experiment with the handicap applied to only one side, and see what difference it makes.

Make all standing civilians count as cover, without blocking LOS. Crew members are trained to take as much cover as they can, but civilians aren't. Any shot that misses with a civilian within 1" of the target hits the civilian if they fail to dodge the same attack roll with a SAG 1 defense. Any critical failure will hit the nearest civilian to the target within 1" of the line of fire. That could include a civilian beyond the target.

You could allow a model within 1/2" of a civilian to engage that civilian, and keep control of them as a human shield. Firing would then be based on the normal rules for firing into close combat. Using the rules for moving scientists from the normal scenarios would work with that.

Authority could be fun based on the NRV of the unit shooting. A Marshal will get a lot of attention, while a lone CSO Trooper won't be as likely to get the result they want. You could allow both sides Authority, since people tend to listen to people waving weapons around, or use it as a balance against fire restrictions.

Rather than have to roll Authority for every civilian within the possible line of fire, make a single roll against the firing unit's NRV (including NRV bonus from Leadership). On a success, the involved civilians drop prone until they move randomly in the next control phase. On a failure, they simply stand and count as cover. That would keep things simpler for moving the civilians around.

You could add another complication, and give standing civilians Misgiving to tie with one or both sides being restricted from open mayhem. Make an Authority roll, and if they make it, the LOS is clear outside a critical failure. Fail the Authority roll, and the civilians count as cover, and can force a Misgiving roll for any force that's restricted from causing extra casualties.

Killed civilians could reduce the VP's for the side that killed them by 5 (or more) if the side responsible wasn't supposed to kill any.

That gives a lot more latitude, without causing too much extra grief:
1) Civilians would only roll to move randomly during the control phase, and count as cover for any fire they intrude on while standing.
2) Authority for one or both sides could clear LOS by dropping endangered civilians prone until the next control phase.
3) Either or both sides could face restrictions on endangering civilans, or could use them as human shields.
4) Misgiving could be applied to either or both sides when endangering civilians, while still allowing risky shots with good rolls.
5) Missed shots with endangered civilians would only require one extra roll to resolve whether they were hit.
6) It allows in game consequences for shooting civilians.

I love the authority idea the way Gimp described it.

Personally I would like to see some kind of "mass panic" rule .... I think that people wouldn't really move randomly but rather run away from the nearest threat or what seams to be the nearest threat. Also I beleive that a crowd will usually run away from an assumed threat in one direction together, rather than in every direction. Last not least a stampeding ... errrr ... a paniced crowd can be a major threat to relieve units or police forces. Maybe civilians should be able to "accidently run over" the crews and knock them prone ... maybe even killing them in the process.

By the way: Why is it that the CSO are always concieved as "the good guys"? With every larger Corp in the background to "finance" the CSO I don't see how a CSO member can be loyal to "the cause" for more than his basic career

Marshal: "What? Civilians in the area of operation? Seargent, we are here to uphold corporate peace and protect corporate property. Have I made myself clear?"
Seargent: " Sir, yes Sir! Uphold peace, protect property Sir! Perfectly clear Sir!"


Nedorus

Well, in most of our modern media, police are portrayed as the good guys (except in examples that specifically turn that trope on its head, but again, those work because we're taught police are good guys.)

That being said, Rezolution doesn't have any pure good guys or pure bad guys. There's a pretty specific example in Outbreak of the other side of the CSO. And yes, they're a business, just like APAC. To the average civilian on the street, they might seem a little more impartial, but this is a dark, grim and gritty cyberpunk world, so no one expects much more from the boys in blue.

There are some great ideas on here...

What I had in mind for the Civilians as far as rules goes, was that shooting thru any non-player model would count as cover, but any time a shot misses a second roll had to be taken. If the second roll hit, nothing happens, if the second roll misses, a/the Civilian model in the LOF is hit.

Some of the ideas on here will really help expand that scenario. We will play around with it and I will let you know how it turns out.



The way I was looking at this, FWIW, is that the CSO are a Peacekeeping/Enforcement agency... if their collateral damage gets too high their funding would get cut... and no one wants that!

With the CSO's roll as a public police organization, I can see them put under firing restrictions much faster than any other organization. Even a dirty cop will toe the corporate line in front of too many witnesses.

You could, however, allow the CSO free reign under 'riot in progress,' provisions.

Crowds can panic and run helter skelter looking for escape, or turn into a stampede that can kill.

If you want to add that kind of provision, you could add a twist on Swarm. Any time a civilian is hit, all civilians within 4" of that point will 'charge' 8" toward the nearest board edge as their next movement, rather than move randomly. That could lead them directly over the model that made the attack, but panic can do that.

Any model within 1/2" of their path, however wide, will be attacked with CCA and damage equal to the size of the Swarm, as with Concentrate Your Fire! If they win the CCA roll, they stay standing, and can, if they wish, cause damage to a Swarm model as normal. If they lose, they not only take damage, but are knocked prone. Note that causing damage would cause the Swarm to move as a Swarm again on the next round.

Once the Swarm has completed its move, it reverts to normal status until the next control phase, so an engaged unit can disengage without suffering free strikes or losing their option to attack unless that unit has caused damage to the Swarm that round. If a unit has caused damage to the Swarm, they must disengage as normal, but only from any Swarm models actually engaging them.

That gives us both the random panicked movement of a crowd, and the deadly stampede effect of a crowd.

It also gives a heartless crew the ability to use the crowd as a weapon.

Tnx Gimp, that was exactly what I was looking for here. I'm always amazed how fast you come up with stuff like this.

I think I like the entire enough to play around with it myselfe for while


Nedorus

See... now someone needs to consolidate all this into a working set of rules and write it all up...

How about i post all my "test results" here and you write it all up and get all the honors in data dump (it was your idea afterall right )

Nedorus

Yeah well, I'm no writer...

Bounce them off me and I'll try to make something legible (and not too long ) out of it.

Very cool idea, Zombie.



@Nedorus, It's the luxury of retired life, or else my medications acting up. I'm never sure.

You do realize that Dravaini will be severely limited in what they can take, No Brides of Lillith, or for that matter shamblers Volkoda, Grimalkin or Lillith herself or anything else that looks alien ESPECIALLY soulless.... While it would be nice to include them, then the Dravani crew would have to perform, cleanup measures to ensure that there were no stories of Strange Monsters roaming the streets and definately no videos of True Forms.

bah! we never worry about what the civilians think! Volkoda creep in the shadows and the Brides move too swiftly to be caught by the naked eye!

Yeah I realized somthing...

I don't have Civilian minis!

LOL.

Looks like I'm gonna be using SW minis as civvies. I mean, it must be ComicCon or Gen Con or somthing where our fight is happening. Hehe.

There would be no problems with allowing Dravani to try out the scenario.

If Dravani are involved, it could be a scenario set in a Dravani facility, or they have a lot of other options on spin.

Souless could be considered to be wearing clothing that conceals their alien features, or simply be classed in news spin as mutants. Mutants are already mentioned on the fluff. Walking through walls and other abilities are no stranger than other craft powers. Since many people consider craft users as mutants, why not mutants that look the part?

Human forms are exactly that, so there is no issue if they are seen. Special powers that actually get filmed could be attributed to new and previously unknown Esper powers.

Lilith is a human form, and so looks right, even if twisted with cybernetics.

Grimalkin could be considered a mutant with cybernetic additions, or simply a powerful person injured and scarred, yet saved through cybernetics.

Volkoda could be genetic manipulation experiments for new guard and attack animals. Without a sample, who could prove they weren't some lab experiment on a normal Earth animal?

Shamblers could be mutants infected with the Toxic Zombie virus. Since no victims would stand back up as Toxic Zombies, they could be called a mutant zombie that does not pass on the virus, yet retains a bit more intelligence.

Brides of Lilith could be classed as either mutants, or genetically enhanced soldiers.

There's no reason the Dravani should be limited, because the people that wouldn't believe the spin are likely to be people that already know there are strange things out there, even if they don't know what they are.

There have been stories of the Dravani leading back into myth, and enough covert ops missions with Dravani troops that at least the tabloids have gotten pictures.

Both the Dravani and government organizations would have interest in keeping the truth about the Dravani away from the general public.

As such, they could easily maintain their status as spun urban myth for most people.

Good calls, Gimp.

I'm also sure the Dravani would have some Ghosts of their own working to suppress the video feeds, and follow-up missions could be them trying to steal any evidence that does slip out, kidnap the station manager's daughter to blackmail him into killing the story, shut down the pirate netbroadcast trying to tell people the truth, etc.

The Dravani have been doing this a long time, and know what they're doing.

You could use the concept to create additional scenarios.

The Dravani fight in public, and then do data steals to collect any evidence they don't control.

You could expand that into part of a simple tree campaign. Win with no worries, but lose and need a data steal.

OOH... or a dravani mission to kill off as many "witnesses" as possible, and the other team trying to stop them... gee... the possibilities...

Okay guys first off according to the treaty between Grimalkin and Melissandra threre was to be no overt exposure of the True Dravani form, or the shamblers, the Dravani are trying to survive in the shadows. So instead of killing them, why not convert, or capture them, for prolonged exposure to Dravani influence....

I do have to agree though this scenario could go back to the Dravani Civil War and then have spin off missions from there.

You also have to consider what 'overt exposure' would mean to the Dravani.

At an extreme level, Dravani could only hide in the compounds, and never fight any battles except to repulse intruders, while having to be careful then.

At a more playable level, consider any battle with Dravani one where they feel they have reasonable control over the public reaction to their forces. Controlled exposure is acceptable, with lose ends cleaned up by data steals and assassinations after the fact.

If any actual Dravani can be spun as espers and mutants, either by Dravani media or other known media that don't want the truth out there, then they can move with impunity.

If there is a risk of major public exposure, they'll send Ronin.

Unless you want to severely limit the play options for Dravani players, you need to think closer to the second option.

While data steals have been mentioned, the idea to kill or convert witnesses gives more scenario fodder.

Tweak the Protection mission from Dark Tomorrow, and you have elements moving a witness at risk to a safe house, or a Dravani captive facing a rescue.

Tweak the Assassins mission, and you have a target that's known to be, or paranoid they are, marked for elimination.

The entire short campaign from Dark Tomorrow could be considered capture and rescue of witnesses, with the Toxic Zombies in the later scenarios being people that have already been silenced.

The Dravani could not be a playable faction unless there were non-Dravani groups protecting the average populace from the ugly and secret truth. Think with that in mind, and you can come up with a lot more cool scenarios.

Think of ways to work within the system, rather than ways to limit your game.

Hey be thankful that I never got my way when arguing with Simon, I was all in favor of Melissandra and full on Dravani Military. I am just playing devil's advocate, and there are a ton more things that you could do, Baggers pulling a harvest for a ritual, or Damned collection. The Baker Street Murders, and not to mention my favorite......